Law 13"When asking for help, appeal to people's self-interest, never to their mercy or gratitude" Law 13 explains that when asking for help whether it be from a friend or foe, one must always put aside his or her interests and always appeal to the “self-interest” of the other person. When appealing to another’s self-interest, one has to make sure they know who they are dealing with and place themselves in the other person’s shoes. People’s self-interests differ from each other and each individual has many interests. One must appeal to an interest that is most immediate. When discovering the other person’s most immediate self-interest one also must make sure that he or she is not subtle when giving the offer. Transgression of this law is appealing to large generic issues or grand emotions such as love, mercy or gratitude.
One example of this law coming into play is of the war between Corcya and Corinth. Both sides needed the support of Athens to ensure victory. Corinth had a strong relationship with Athens and Corcya has once allied itself with the enemies of Athens. Corinth appealed to the many years of loyalty, good deeds and services it has offered Athens while Corcya offered Athens the control of their superior navy which would be a strong weapon against the Spartans (Athens’ rivals). Athens in the end decided to support Corcya.
Another example of this law is between Cleopatra and Caius Julius Caesar Octavianus. When Octavian (consul of Rome) arrived in Egypt to kill Cleopatra and her lover Mark Anthony, Octavian offered to spare Cleopatra’s life and her dignity if she gave him Mark Anthony. Octavian appealed to the Cleopatra’s self interest and got what he wanted. Cleopatra in the other hand appealed to the mercy of Octavian and after tricking Mark Anthony into killing himself, Cleopatra find out that Octavian wants to bring her back to Rome to make a fool out of her.
Human beings are by nature greedy and anyone can be hooked in when appealing to their self interest, even someone as holy as the pope.
Niko Foos
Subscribe to:
Post Comments (Atom)
26 comments:
ouch! that was foul to hit on the pope man! haha
although i do agree that humans may exhibit a natural tendency for self preservation, i think naman some people as moral as the pope can set aside selfish desires for the greater good.
i think though this is in line with that other law on crushing your enemies totally. given that your opponent follows the same principles, i think your ability to use your opponents (or friend's) self-interest against them can save your life.
yeah, i agree with nico, that despite of our natural tencency to preserve ourselves there is still some people that are willing to sacrifice their selfish desires for the common good, and i think that is one of the qualities that a good leader should have: to be "man/woman for others (this sounds so Atenean, hehe)".
mike orlino
hi 18 O
just like in the law that says that discover each man's thumbscrew, you must always appeal to people with what their interests are, that's why we have district representatives in the house of representatives, because supposedly, they uphold the best interests of people who live in their districts. this is also the same reason why senators arent enough for representatives, because district representatives have a limited scope to their power thus allowing them to know the people at a scalable level, their duty is to put the best interest of the people. it is human nature to ask "what's in it for me?' thats why its easier to show them things that are beneficial to them if they indeed help you out.
Nastashja Melevo
II BS LM
HI 18 O
I have seen this law reenacted for so many times in the countless movies and tv shows I have watched (mostly shows about good guys catching the bad guys).
Interrogated suspects or those accused of being accesories to murder or any of the like use this law (even if they are not aware ot it). They ask for an "exchange" or something in return, like only a few years in prison, money after they get out, etc., before giving any information about who they work for, etc. By doing this, they appeal to the interrogator's/s' self-interest which is actually an interest of the whole body of authority, i.e. obtaining evidences and leads that are needed to be able to catch the other bad guys. (You will usually see this in CSI). Sometimes, this situation goes the other way around, wherein the interrogator appeals to the self-interest of the one being interrogated to be able to acquire what the former wants. Both sides adequately gets what he or she wants in this situation.
Reading nico and mike's comment, I find myself agreeing with them. There are still people who are loyal. In one episode of ROME, Mark Anthony was presented with a "tantalizing" offer from Pompey. This offer required him to betray Ceasar. Pompey targeted Mark Anthony's self-interest to add to the strength of his assurance of winning against Ceasar. But Mark Anthony did not betray Ceasar (much to my surprise because it looked like he was someone who would do such a thing) instead he remained loyal to Ceasar. Also, I want to add that in ROME, the best example of someone who will not compromise his loyalty to those that called for it is Lucius Vorenus. He stood by Mark Anthony until the end even if he knew that his own life was at stake. :D
Kira Gochuico
HI 18 N
Ooops. This law seems risky in a way that the one you are asking help from could take advantage too much on you.
Well, congratulations to Corcya!Offering Athens the control of their superior navy??? Woah, that must be a really big decision to make! I mean you are not sure on the first place what could happen in offering that one element of your authority. Definitely, the danger in appealing to people's self-interest is losing something they could even use wholly against you.
: Joanne Atienza N
This law makes me feel bad! I know it may seem true that people really are selfish by nature, but I still want to believe that there are some out there (or hopefully, a lot out there) who are still capable of thinking of the welfare of others. Therefore I agree with everyone else who commented!! :)
But yeah, fine, this law does really stand true. I'm sure we've all done something out of selfishness or self-interest at some point in our lives. It's an honest fact, I guess; we probably even do it at some point in our everyday lives, and being this way has become so normal for us we don't even realize it anymore.
Score one for Law 13, negative 1 point for humanity. :|
Dyan Garcia, II AB MEC, Hi18 O
I agree, we are greedy by nature. But we can be selfless, be a man for others, be a good friend and treat others well.
Luigi Ramirez Hi18-O
i agree with nico and mike but i think that when niko emphasized that one must appeal to someone's IMMEDIATE self-interest, it didn't necessarily mean appealing only to a person's selfish desires. we can appeal to someone's desire to preserve or benefit someone else, like a loved one or a friend of his/hers, as long as this desire is immediate. by offering to help them help others, we can fool or trick them into getting what we want from them by making them think that they will be helping someone. thus they will think they're doing the right thing or doing something kind and good for others; their pride in their ability of helping or doing something for others will then be gratified and we can therefore manipulate them into getting what we desire of or from them. in short, we don't always have to appeal to someone's selfish or self-preserving desires; it will be easier to get what you want from others when you make them believe that they are not being selfish or that they are helping others in doing what you want them to do for you. i hope i'm making sense here. :P
-Janna Amigo
II AB Lit (Eng)
HI 18 N
I don't think the pope is such a good example out there, man. I don't say anything about the moral thingy, like Nico's, but being revered does not mean that the person being revered has selfish intentions. It's really stereotyping on anyone. If this is the case, then no one should trust anyone. Not even your parents, for instance. But it is true, man can have selfish intentions, which is the best weapon to entice, but that doesn't mean that all men are greedy, just use this law to say, "This is a gain to you" or "This is for your best."
-Jedd Emille Chua
Hi 18 O
Never appear needy.
Tashie made a good point here, because really, given a situation, a person would ask "What's in it for me?" When you want something, there's no need to beg. Begging, in the corporate world, for example, will only make you seem vulnerable and possibly worthless.
Instead, you can do what this law says. In asking your parents for a car, don't rant about how it would make you happy. You can tell them how it would be more beneficial for them since they need not get off from work early (and have more opportunity to do overtime) because they don't have to pick you up from school.
On a different note, I think we should avoid getting into the "moral of the story" here because it seems inappropriate. Injecting bits on what is right and the need to serve others will only raise questions on what you think morality is vis-a-vis what I think morality is and so on.
Pia Angela J. Maske
II AB-MA Political Science
Hi 18, Section O
It's really more effective to get people to help you out by making them think they're actually getting the better side of the bargain. Of course, this needs a lot of skill in identifying what it is that the other party would be willing to help you out for and also, smooth-talking you way into getting the deal done. I agree with pia when she said that we shouldn't appear too needy, or those we need help from might use that as some sort of leverage over us.
Patty Geollegue
Hi18- N
I believe this law can be linked to law 2, about learning how to use enemies to your advantage. Law 13 reminds me of how a Chinese Emperor was able to keep his throne despite the ongoing threat of coups at that time. What the emperor did was to offer his enemies riches and security, in exchange with them giving up their commands completely. And, being human, they all gave in to the immediate gain of wealth. From that time onwards, the Emperor made loyal followers out of his enemies, simply by appealing to their self-interests.
I guess what’s important to consider is who you are actually asking help from, be it a friend or an enemy. A friend would help gladly, and this would be when mercy or gratitude would come into play. But as far as asking help from an enemy, I think self-interest is the way to go. Let them realize it’s for their benefit, and not as a favor (because that might require you paying a much higher price in the future).
Marian Janelle C. Aliwalas
HI 18 N
"Nico Mendiola said...
ouch! that was foul to hit on the pope man! haha
although i do agree that humans may exhibit a natural tendency for self preservation, i think naman some people as moral as the pope can set aside selfish desires for the greater good.
i think..."
I understand your defense however I must come back with a defense for my statement. The point I was trying to make is that this law is one that is easily broken humans because by nature we appeal to our self interest. The term "self-interest" is not subjective. To act on one's self interest does not necessarily mean that he or she has bad intentions or an interest that is morally wrong. No, in fact it can be something as simple as wanting a cookie. Let's not demean this law and go back to my statement with regards to the Pope. I still stand behind my comment on the fact that even the Pope can break this law. What do I mean by this? Well for one, the Pope is a spiritual leader, therefore he appeals to universal things like love, unity, togetherness! What is this? TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW! Also just a simple glance at the law 13 itself. Would the pope under any circumstance ever appeal to say the needs of a rebel group? No he would say something like, "please we are all the inhabitant of the earth we should not fight". Well it wouldn't be as unsophisticated as that but I hope I am getting the point through. When push comes to shove and the Pope or any figure who is seen as holy or unselfish will eventually appeal to their self interest. What is the self interest of the Pope? Making people happy and being holy, making peace, increasing the love etc. it is still a self interest.
Niko Falcon
H18- N
"joanne atienza said...
Ooops. This law seems risky in a way that the one you are asking help from could take advantage too much on you."
This is an interesting point that you bring up. At face value, this law can be bombarded with criticism. The simple idea of giving your enemy the upper hand is not much to brag about. BUT! That is why being the big Kahuna or being better than the rest is not given to you on a silver platter. I would like to re-state something I have heard many times over, "sometimes you must move 2 steps back to get 4 steps forward", or something along those lines. The focus is on willing to move backwards to get ahead. This is exactly what this Law is proposing. The genius and strength of it comes from this idea because one has to be able to have the guts to take a risk and fall back before sneaking up again and snapping of the head of the laughing enemy who is thinking to himself, "what a sucker".
This aspect of the law I feel is very unique because it is one that is mastered by the "masters". One must have great confidence but what is more important is that one has a lot of experience. We can view this law as a "make or break law". If you fail, then the world can come crashing down because you have moved two steps back and can't move forward or even kicked back further leaving you "behind" sore. Success however can be "oh so sweet", the strategy of moving backwards leaves your enemy unaware and unguarded and you can walk past him with a grin on your face.
"Jedd Emille Chua said...
I don't think the pope is such a good example out there, man. I don't say anything about the moral thingy..."
This is about to get a little messy but I think it is worth it to get my point out. I shall replace my example of the pope and replace him with your parents, my parents, her parents, his parent...everyone in the world. Let me first just justify why I used the Pope as an example: 1) I knew it would get peoples attention, yes that is basically it. I could have easily used my brother or sister but they already epitomize self interest.
So let us begin. The main point I was driving at again is that we all have a tendency to be greedy or have our own self interest in mind when dealing with other people. As I said before, we need to clarify the word "greed" or "self interest". I think that is what has been stereotyped. (As an aside yes I am stereotyping humans like I can stereotype that a hungry person eats. I believe that self interest is a human characteristic like every computer has a keyboard)So back on the track let's look at an example:
Parents and you when you were 7 years old. Mommy wants you to clean up your room but you say, "NO NO NO!" and mommy goes, "please do this for mommy, don't you love mommy?", and you go, "I don't want to clean it!". BOOM! Mom just broke the law! She needed your help but she used L-O-V-E (transgression of the law). Yes sometimes her efforts will work but not as effective as her appeal to your self interest like getting a lollipop.
Yes your self interest could be "love from mommy" but...yeah at 7 I don't think so.
I think my mistake is that too much emphasis has been placed on people being greedy. This was actually meant to supplement the explanation of the law. The tendency of people's self interest makes it easy to break the law.
As far as the law being something that is used as a weapon. I would beg to differ and claim that the law is something that is used everyday and broken everyday.
Just an example. What is most people's self interest? "Money". I bet if I needed something and gave money to compensate for their help, I would get to most people. Yes it is sad people! But it is true! But this is assuming I had a lot of money and the help I needed aren't so out of this world.
LAW 13 is a weapon yes, but it is not a gun.
The worst situation that a person could be in is in a state of gratitude. The point that you owe a person something means to a certain extent that he/she owns you, which wouldn't be very ideal if you don't like helping others. right? Thus as what this law states, you must appeal to their interest. Make it seem like that you are invite him/her in to a journey that would greatly benifit him. In the long run, he would have helped you already and you do not owe him anything at all yet there is a chance that he'd be the one who'll be owing something. All you need to do is tap in to that person's pool of interest and it is how you play your cards from there.
Dexter Tanengsy, Hi18-N
I can see how this law can be quite complicated. In asking for help, one should make sure that the person he is asking feels that what he is being asked to do is actually worth his time and effort. If not, the favor you requested may not likely turn out as you wanted.
Speaking now about the whole self-interest and greed issue, one should keep in mind that in every favor, one expects some form of reward. Be it in the form of future support, praise, or future favors. Gratitude is only a part of it. Is there really a good deed or favor that is not rewarded in some form? Selfless acts are overrated because they make the person look better, if not, feel better. And speaking of this, everyone just wants a pay-off anyway. Appealing to a person's self-interest just speeds up (or skips) the whole 'i owe you' bit of giving favors. Eventually, the other party will have to pay up someday, and to eliminate the time fo being "grateful" to them for what they did, just make them think that what they're doing for you is really for them. It's all about making it a win-win situation for everyone.
Marian Janelle C. Aliwalas
HI 18 N
Interesting you brought up the idea of "what's in it for me" and "pay-off". I also feel that there is no real selfless act. Even those who do the most selfless act has a motive behind it.
Some would argue this with a scenario were someone gives his/her life for another person. One could question where is the pay off in this situation. Well I think we must somehow detach ourselves from the sad concept. We can see it as someone doing an act with a motive. The motive is to save someone's life because it will make them feel better that, that person will live rather than die.
That on its on is acting on your self-interest. One's interest to prevent a person from dying or prevent them from harm is an interest nonetheless.
With this said, one could argue that there is no such thing a selfless act. No there are selfless acts but are not purely selfless. Because no matter how selfless a person is, their selflessness is driven my self interest as well.
Niko Falcon
Hi18-N
yes this law is very sad
but i still believe that there are still genuine friends who'l never leave you or trade you for material things. :)
marion adalia
bs mgt
Very sad indeed.
I also believe that. There are friends that won't leave you or betray you but just by looking at that, it is high probable that it is their self interest that guides them not to betray you or leave you for material things.I think that this is the barrier that we must cross. People associate self interest with negativity. In reality however self interest can be someone wanting to see you happy. For example, your mother's self interest is seeing you happy because she feels like a good mother when you are happy. It might be depressing to think that she is using you to make her feel like a good mother but we don't complain. We complain if mommy leaves you for a shiny new ring.
Niko Falcon
Hi18-N
This is something you learn in marketing.
When you're trying to get a company to sponsor your product, you also have to be be able to have something to offer. They will ask, "what do i get out of it?" You have to appeal to the needs of the company first before they develop any interest in your product.
That's why mutually beneficial relationships are formed. Both have something to offer, both get something in return.
In response to what Camille said, her concept takes the form of specialization and trade in Economics. Allow me to quote Mankiw:
"Every day you rely on many people from around the world, most of whom you do not know, to provide you with the goods and services that you enjoy. Such interdependence is possible because people trade with one another. Those people who provide you with goods and services are not acting out of generosity or concern for your welfare. Nor is some government agency directing them to make what you want and to give it to you. Instead, people provide you and other consumers with the goods and services they produce because they get something in return."
In other words, there's no such thing as a free lunch.
Bonus points!
Yes, I agree with Camille and Marcy, mutually beneficial conditions are always the case with trade. In addition to that, people that you have enticed with "pay-offs" or benefits are likely to be more dependable because they are aware of their possible gains from helping you whereas people whose mercies or gratitudes you rely on can easily change their minds about helping you unless they are true to their word or unless you have shown a great amount of goodness towards them in the past that they just can't refuse you now.
To Niko:
I do agree with your stand on the fact that everything we do has an element of self-interest, BUT i think we should also not deviate from the discussion at hand. The discussion is about the law, and there have been sound arguments for and against it. it would take an eternity to disect this law and all the parts that influence it.
So let us just now have a final recap on the law as a whole, based on people's comments i think we can conclude that we must exercise a great deal of caution when working with others. There are many strategies but what we can really be sure of is that we must never fully engage with someone with only our self-interest in mind.
Marian Janelle C. Aliwalas
HI 18 N
it is like "what's in it for me?" kind of thing. I think it's the word "Mutualism". of course the people need motivation to do things right? Maybe this law needs someone who is good at communicating and play with what he/she's saying to make the request to the people sound motivating. It shows that everyone wants to have a share with the power and to say that they are given equal amount of power.
Don Faylon
Hi18N
This is one of my favorite laws in the book but to apply it in the real world is confusing. Basically to make a deal with someone;You have offer something in return for something. What if what you have to offer has no value like let's say a subscription to an unpopular newsletter. Or simply asking your friend for a ride. In situations like these how can you create value in your offer.
Post a Comment